What Are Your Initial Thoughts About Esperance??

[Ots_Adam]

My gripes aren't many or very large.

Hmm not much if anything for the internet/radio broadcaster that we didn't have before, shame about the drab black/charcoal colour scheme, the size of the decks is something i'll get used to in time with all those extra buttons that I have no use for and again the colour scheme.

And my biggest loss is not being able to have the decks at the bottom.

The search is fine I guess, but then so was the old one as far as I was concerned.

I still love Ots because is just sounds so great and mixes so well without me having to do anything.

Now I just sound like a grumpy old man



Paul.

Looking forward already to the next update as this one really has nothing new for me.

Hi Paul,

I think your comment is really well measured. Not grumpy at all.

It's OK, don't lose faith! And don't assume those little looping buttons are always just for looping Oh, and of course we'll be adding more options for colours, etc, but would you have rather had this in July ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

We're actually really excited about the radio features we've developed and we're quite disappointed ourselves that we had to hold them back from this initial release. But without the media library change it's not possible to store the info we need to store to make them all work. Pushing the media library format change out now *would* have made you all beta testers, as someone else surprisingly tried to suggest of us in another thread. We won't release something that's not good to go. Doesn't mean everything will be perfect or there won't be issues, but hopefully if/when there are they are more in the minor annoyance category than catastrophic.

Re the user interface, it's been our major achillies heel for years. You guys who have been using Ots for years just don't see it because you're used to it and let's face it, if you hated it so much you wouldn't be an Ots user in the first place. But many people don't even give Ots a go because of the dated look. On the other hand, we're still selling OtsTurntables in surprisingly good numbers considering it was developed back in 2003 and hasn't had any substantial upgrades (only Windows compatibility re-issues) and never any feature upgrades! Why? Because people like the look of it. OK, and it's fun, and it's cheap, and you could state other reasons too. But think about it... a 9 year old program that has zero usable searching ability (and no media library as such), hasn't had a single feature update in that entire time span, and yet people still happily part with US$100 for OtsTurntables Pro on a daily basis. The thing is, looks do matter! They don't matter to the sound quality and they don't matter to the ultimate function, but they certainly matter to the emotion of the user (in the overwhelming majority of cases). Because many of you guys either bought Ots back when its looks were still respectable for the time, or if later, perhaps you really are a person who just doesn't give a toss about looks, therefore you don't really see this as an issue. You're used to it, and it does what you like, and that's all great. But why should Ots miss out on a large number of users simply because of dated looks? Think of all those people who could be enjoying the benefits of Ots but aren't given the chance, simply because they're put off at the first look!

We kick ****** in the solution provider market (companies using OtsAV to power background music and video systems for venues, retail outlets, etc). Think about the fact that in many of those cases, there isn't even a monitor connected to the computer running OtsAV, and if so, it's not on. In such cases, sure looks don't matter. But if you want us to remain also focused on the DJ market rather than put all our efforts into the OEM/SP area where we are doing really well, then you have to at least afford us the lattitude to make changes we recognise we have to make in order to capture more of that particular market. You have to look beyond yourself. It applies to us too. We also didn't have a problem with the old look, simply because we were so used to it - just like most of you. But the reality is, market research clearly demonstrates that 1.85 does not win any beauty awards. It's not ugly as much as it's just dated by 2012 standard where iPhones and iPads have become the new kings on the street. We had to either follow the sensible path of accepting this reality or turn our efforts away from the DJ market altogether. I'm sure you're glad we choose to remain! But please try and support our efforts and recognise that ultimately it's good for you, because more users of this type ultimately means more resources can be justified on this area (whether we're talking DJ or radio, doesn't matter).

Jeff made an interesting comment about skinning, which was fair enough on the surface. But trust me when I say this is an area we very deeply looked into. This effort commenced long ago. It's not something you cook up in a few months. If you think deeply about the issues at play, it's actually very complicated to design an interface for this kind of application (where you have fixed units of size, such as decks) and you wish to accommodate the full gamut of display sizes (in our case from 1024 x 600 up to 2560 x 1600) and different features usage (some users use video, which takes quite a bit of room, others are audio only), and keep the app freely resizable *and* at least give the appearance that as little as possible space is being wasted. Skinning doesn't cut it and brings in a whole host of complications on its own. That's why other DJ apps have skins which are purely targeted at one resolution -- too bad if you decide you want to restore the window size, or have to switch from your external monitor to your laptop inbuilt which happens to be smaller and do it all while the program continues to run gracefully without any disruption. We didn't want any of that. And if we had introduced that, no doubt many of you would have found a new thing to complain about Seriously, what we wanted was pure freedom (even the old Ots didn't allow free resizing of the window) to run however you like, on whatever you like - even switching mid-stream - while looking modern and completely polished, even dare I say it, cool, without compromising stability or introducing new unwanted issues. But more than that, we wanted the functional side of things to dramatically improve. This is far more than just a cosmetic overhaul. It's a new user interface which is far better designed and logical than the older. If you don't think so, let's have this conversation in a year. Perhaps even a month will be enough. Do you know how I know? I'll tell you...

Every time ... every *single* time we do something (no matter how positive), people bitch about it. Then after some time they calm down. Then a little after that they see the light and realise how shortsighted they were being. So we completely expected this kind of reaction. But I still feel it's important to explain it for the benefit of perhaps new users, and even to serve as a reminder to older ones. Think about this as a classic example: when Ots first introduced the Media Library and OMQL into OtsDJ around 2002 (obviously very powerful features and vastly superior to what was there before which was simply the ability to randomize an entire folder of songs at startup into the playlist) we had heaps of people complaining about the fact that they could no longer generate a randomized list at startup in the same way. (You can still do this with the Media Library and templates of course, but it all works differently and is way more powerful). So here we had people who just couldn't see the light (at the time) about having a powerful Media Library feature like this. These same people are the biggest advocates of the Media Library today (and indeed I distinctly remember some "lights turning on" even just weeks later as things started to dawn). What would the uproar be if we removed the Media Library and OMQL in the next version? Oh, but it's OK... you can have your simple folder-randomize feature at startup back

The point is... humans absolutely loathe change - EVEN WHEN THAT CHANGE IS GOOD, OR EVEN AWESOME! Of course the clock in the new user interface in 1.90 is in a far more logical position now (hey, it's right near the top of the time column for the playlist, and they're the two things you'd normally be comparing times for), but even that simple change has been criticized (sorry Matt!). It's not personal of course. We understand it. Matt is just so used to seeing the clock floating in a really weird position somewhere between the tool bar and the minimize box, that when order is introduced and it gets installed in a far more logical and practical (and stable) position, neurons in the brain begin firing and screaming "NO!! NO!!! STOP IT!! I CAN'T". But let's ask Matt (or anyone else - I only use Matt because it's a very nice simple example I just read of what I'm talking about) to come back in say 6 months (or maybe even far earlier) after having run 1.90 and then go and run 1.85 and give his honest opinion. Of course we can't speak for Matt or anyone specific. But if I had to put money on it (which in fact I am, by having steered the company this way!) I know where my bets would lie. Give it time. That's the moral.

Let Ots do what they have to do. Trust us. We've invested thousands upon thousands of man hours into an area, conducted extensive research, etc. Don't you think that's going to count for something, compared to an off-the-cuff opinion of someone (anyone - could be me with the shoe on the other foot) that's just seen something for a matter of hours?

Basically what I'm saying is that YOU WILL LIKE THIS! You just may not know it yet. I can say that relatively confidently because I've been in this situation countless times before and it always ends the same. You know, even when we introduced video in 2006 there were whingers. Same (very much so, in fact) with ABM. But can you imagine the uproar if we suddenly removed ABM now! I realise not everyone uses every single feature, but that's not the point. People do use all these features and they have to be implemented logically and with order (at least that's our goal - of course it's not always possible to hit the post perfectly).

So, if you take my premise that you're eventually going to not just like, but really LOVE this stuff - in a relatively short time from now, then can we just skip all this wasteful beginning part and focus on what the changes actually are in a positive manner and on actually embracing them? That would be easier, more pleasant and more efficient for everyone. Of course if you *really* *really* hate something SO much then you'll go somewhere else. I'm not trying to presume anything here, just recalling what I've seen over the many years. And I hardly think any of you are in the hate category. So what do you say, let's just get on with it 'eh?

Don't care about what features were or weren't in *this* release. Many of the proposed ideas thrown around were people's own dreams anyway - nothing Ots ever stated. We clearly can't do everything everyone wants. But then neither can other apps, otherwise they'd have captured your full attention by now and you wouldn't be wasting any time around here. So enjoy what you have, enjoy the new things that come your way (1.90.000) and look forward to what's to come - further Esperance releases. (You never know, something planned for one of the future releases might be the very idea you're really wanting.)

Take care guys, and please, keep talking... after so much effort put into this for such a long time, it's quite fun for our guys reading the various comments. Sure, some posts come across a little harsh, rushed, or unjust, but we'll try to overlook that. We know you're all really nice guys underneath the surface

A.

[Mike Sinclair]

Adam,

Thanks for the post! I for one already LOVE Esperance. And, if you look at some of my other posts, I tried to leave Ots for other software because I am a Mac guy. I loathe Windows. I thought I found something I could live with and then the controller kept locking up on me. I have NEVER had one single issue with Ots. If you guys ever do release a Mac version, my life will be complete.

But, I mean, think about that in and of itself... the ONLY software I use on Windows is OtsAV ... but it's THAT good. The rest just don't stack up.

As far as Esperance, I think it's amazing. I like the clock placement and the decks and the turntables. I love how the play and cue buttons are red & green (similar to real decks). The search method is incredible and the looping is very good too. One question on looping (for Adam or anyone who's played with Esperance with an HC4500). I have a 4500 on the way, but I won't have it for a few days, so I'm wondering something: once you start a loop, can you extend or shrink the loop? Or is this to come in an update? Otherwise, I'm a happy camper. It can only get better, right?

[Jigger]

Excellent responce as usual Adam.
It did feel stange at first but as you say you quickly get into it, I am really pleased with the new look,and even in the short time of using Esperance getting use to it is no problem.

[whisper]

i will also hold back from "upgrading" to the new version..at the moment though..
as stated we all have our "wishlist " so to speak..and i'm sure they will be adressed at some point.
this release has been roughly two years in the making..and some difficult obstacles had to be overcome.
i'm taking it for granted that the base code of the program has been overhauled to allow the new features in esperance to function..and most importantly to give the program ability to add other features in the future.
i'm in no way downbeat about the upgrade and i'm sure any criticisms have been take on board..specifically about THIS release..
not future releases or would be future functions...

on my part, for those who embrace this release, enjoy...
myself..i'm looking forward to further features that will attract me to spend my cash on an upgrade that presses the buttons for me.
please don't make it so long between upgrades..thats all i ask.

[JohnnyTheFox]

Thansk Adam. Very eloquently put may I say.

One question for someone, rather than display the full library on each startup, is there a way I can display one particular category on startup as default? I can't find how you display categories.

[krzyd]

Thanks for the recent communication, that has been my biggest gripe for ten years, seems to be improving of late and that's a good thing, on to Esperance...

-I absolutely love the new color scheme, though I see why some wouldn't
-The new search interface is nifty
-I'm not crazy about the smaller cover art unless it's moused over, maybe there's a way to change I'm not seeing yet, as was stated earlier, LOOKS MATTER!

[Ots_Adam]

Adam,

Thanks for the post! I for one already LOVE Esperance. And, if you look at some of my other posts, I tried to leave Ots for other software because I am a Mac guy. I loathe Windows. I thought I found something I could live with and then the controller kept locking up on me. I have NEVER had one single issue with Ots. If you guys ever do release a Mac version, my life will be complete.

But, I mean, think about that in and of itself... the ONLY software I use on Windows is OtsAV ... but it's THAT good. The rest just don't stack up.

As far as Esperance, I think it's amazing. I like the clock placement and the decks and the turntables. I love how the play and cue buttons are red & green (similar to real decks). The search method is incredible and the looping is very good too. One question on looping (for Adam or anyone who's played with Esperance with an HC4500). I have a 4500 on the way, but I won't have it for a few days, so I'm wondering something: once you start a loop, can you extend or shrink the loop? Or is this to come in an update? Otherwise, I'm a happy camper. It can only get better, right?

Thanks heaps Mike and Jigger.

Mike, yes, that does make us feel fairly proud of our efforts. I'm aware of a few other people in your category - running Windows just for OtsAV. We'd love to make a Mac version as such, but the truth is the market (niche within a niche) just doesn't justify it. That's sad, but it's true. On the other hand, I've thought about clever ways to port OtsAV across to the Mac using techniques such as Wine (which I'm sure you're familiar with). None of them would rival a native app however, but who knows? It may still work very well. Ots is fairly efficient. But then you'd have to ask yourself, is the ability to run within OS X (to avoid the time/hassle in switching over to Windows each time) worth it to you in the lost performance you'd get since operating system calls would all essentially be being emulated?

Re the looping question, you can't currently shrink and expand loops on the fly, but that's definitely coming soon. Our underlying engine can do it and it's very cool

Thanks again for your positivity. It's very pleasing/rewarding for us folk here to hear those sentiments.

Cheers,
A.

[Ots_Adam]

Thansk Adam. Very eloquently put may I say.

One question for someone, rather than display the full library on each startup, is there a way I can display one particular category on startup as default? I can't find how you display categories.

Thanks Johnny, you can't in this version - but they're the kinds of things we'll be adding. Simple and logical and very useful.

Regards,
A.

[Ots_Adam]

Further to the above, on re-reading your question it appears that maybe you are also asking how to display categories in general - not just in startup. I take it you're aware of the button menu to the left of the "OMQL" field. The first option in this is a submenu that contains all categories. Click one of these, and the view will be limited to just that category. You can equally as well just type the cat name into the OMQL field. It's the same thing really.

[Mike Sinclair]

And, that's awesome too. How many software companies jump on a forum after a release and immediately answer questions? Ots Corp is a class act.

Honestly Adam, I have no problem using a Windows laptop to run Ots. I've surrendered to the fact that Ots is my software of choice and it happens to be windows-based. I picked up a Dell Ultrabook with in i5 processor and it's a nice little computer.

Thanks again!

[jeff wood]

no one else got any views on the category and search situation

unless I'm doing something completely wrong, it seems bonkers to me,,,,

let me explain;

firstly, its pita to have to click on two different places just to get the category you want.

and then it seems you can't do a general search whilst you are in a category

you have to go out of that category first..


surely thats crazy !


i must be doing something wrong  


there must be some DJs on here who have a view on this or can explain what im doing wrong,,,

I mean I take it you all use categories when your dj ing .....



PS> I really like the look of it by the way, does look cool..

[Ots_Adam]

no one else got any views on the category and search situation

unless I'm doing something completely wrong, it seems bonkers to me,,,,

let me explain;

firstly, its pita to have to click on two different places just to get the category you want.

and then it seems you can't do a general search whilst you are in a category

you have to go out of that category first..


surely thats crazy !


i must be doing something wrong  


there must be some DJs on here who have a view on this or can explain what im doing wrong,,,

I mean I take it you all use categories when your dj ing .....



PS> I really like the look of it by the way, does look cool..

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure I understand the problem you are having. You can select a category using the dropdown menu (button to the left of OMQL field) and chosing the submenu in it (top) which displays all categories and you obivously pick one. But this is just a simple feature to aid the understanding of how categories work - they really just place the selected category name in the OMQL field. All the power is in OMQL. This was the same in 1.85 - when you picked from the dropdown list, the cat name would be placed in the field.

If your cat names are generally nice and short, it's far easier just to type to enter queries. Personally I always do this. Of course the list (menu) does still serve a useful purpose of reminding you what your category names actually are, for those moments when you're not even really sure what you're doing or wanting.

But all in all, unless you really need to rely on the mouse (comfort reasons or maybe something else), I'd at least suggest trying to retrain yourself to use the keyboard more. It's actually way faster in most cases, unless you have ridiculously long cat names or something. Plus when you use the list (doesn't matter whether we're talking 1.90 or the older 1.85), you are always limited to just the one cat.

If you use the keyboard, you can instantly do cool things like:
pop&rock
and you'll see everything that's in the pop AND rock category, or
pop|rock
for things that are in pop OR rock (ie. doesn't have to be both).

This becomes really powerful, and when you combine it with other things such as the 'bpm' keyword, 'lastplay' and others, you really have a lot of cool tools at your disposal.

If "pop&rock" doesn't seem intuitve to you, you can also type "pop & rock" or even "pop and rock" and all variations will produce exactly the same results. But the thing is, "pop&rock" is the least amount of keystrokes (which means, faster!) and once you get the & and | symbols clearly in your head and their meanings, you'll find yourself blasting out OMQL in your sleep.

Who needs a slow menu driven by the mouse?

But seriously, of course we recognise that some people are way more comfortable that way, and that's why we placed that option in the menu. We will most likely make further enhancements to this area, and yes, there may well be a wall of buttons for each category at some stage. That kind of thing is not a bad idea as such - but mostly for ease of use and discovery for new users. Since you're seasoned, see how you go giving those keywords ago I mentioned earlier.

Hope that helps

A.

[mel garland]

Thanks Adam for answering some of the questions asked in this thread and other threads on this forum.  I'm glad you are looking into the colour schemes, this was one of my gripes, but I still can't see why you have taken out the ability of importing a Cd into Esp. You are saying it is old technology but to me it is useful to have when presented with a Cd track to play at a gig.  There is no way I'm going to rip it into studio whilst doing a gig and without taking a CD player I'm stuffed.

[JohnnyTheFox]

Further to the above, on re-reading your question it appears that maybe you are also asking how to display categories in general - not just in startup. I take it you're aware of the button menu to the left of the "OMQL" field. The first option in this is a submenu that contains all categories. Click one of these, and the view will be limited to just that category. You can equally as well just type the cat name into the OMQL field. It's the same thing really.

That's exactly what I was after. Thanks Adam. I missed that button.

I'm happy and echo the thoughts on another thread, what other software company would be on hand on an unofficial forum to answer questions like this? More power to your elbow Ots! Much appreciated.

[Stress_Magnet]

I've found a negative - You cannot resize the columns in the Media Library - if you have two items that start with the same few characters (e.g. all my Promo Only DVDs are named "Promo Only Chart 2012 07 July" for quick searching on the month) all I can see in the list is "Promo Only Char..." - there's no way of seeing the full title (in the past I would resize the column).

Hi Darryl
From what I can see there is no need for you to type "promo only Chart "for everything that is just bloating your system I just abbreviate mine as much as poss say, to POC1207.

I was disappointed not to see a highly desirable  Configurable text placeholder which would have the ability to keep a note between tracks for say music video and key settings  , useful for everyone. and the biggest omission was in my opinion the ability to save graphic equaliser settings for different venues or for punching out different genres perhaps even storing the eq in the ots studio file .
Also someone once said ots did not plan to have lighting control well there is a lighting control chunk greyed out in Ots studio been there a long time.
Everything else is great but it to me is more like a revamp than an upgrade.
The most important thing was previously mentioned and that is the lack of Documentation to accompany the release , there can be no excuse as these changes have taken sooooo long that even the tea boy could have written a manual for this , I am happy to use ots for ever exclusively , but sad that some of the simple omissions were made.  I think someone suggested colours for the tracks so that the genres of the songs could be instantly seen was a suggestion I made years ago.and would have been no problem to program in. shame because it would have given us a bit more in what has turned out to be a pretty average christmas stocking.